Continuation of last post:)

After that exchange on Facebook, Emily messaged me because obviously it was getting pretty long for an exchange on the wall.

Here is what she said
I thought I'd move this here so we're not cluttering up your wall anymore. :) So, on with the discussion!


I can't agree with you on the point you made. Like I said earlier, God created mankind to reproduce, to "be fruitful and multiply". You said in your first post that happy productive children can come out of a gay/lesbian relationship, but unfortunately that's not right. A gay or lesbian couple can't produce children at all. Of course they can adopt, or have children by other means, and they can raise them to be decent people, but at the very core of their relationship they are disobeying God's very first command. He didn't say "Be Happy.". He didn't suggest that we devlop relationships based on personal pleasure. The first words a Holy Infinite God spoke to man were "Be fruitful and multiply." (Genesis 1.28) Entirely aside from the blatant commands in scripture that say not to engage in same sex relationships, and ignoring the judgement of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (which were destroyed because of homosexuality), I have to say that gay and lesbian relationships are wrong simply because they disobey God.

You're mostly right in saying that personal sin doesn't affect others. I agree with you. But it does affect yourself. The Bible calls disobedience sin. Romans 6:23 says that "The wages of sin is death" I'm sure you understand the words, but I think as humans, we often forget that our sins are earning us an eternal "paycheck". Because God is Holy, He requires a payment for sin. Because God is Infinite, our sin against Him is infinite, and being finite, even through an eternity in hell, we can't pay Him back for all our sin.

Luckily, Jesus, who is God, came to earth and died for us. I Corinthinans 15 says "I declare to you the gospel... that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, was buried and rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures." Because Jesus was perfect, His death is able to pay for all of our sins. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "If we confess with our mouth, He is faithful and JUST to forgive our sins and cleanse us from our unrighteousness."

I'm sure you've heard this before. And I'm sure you're reading this all very skeptically, planning your reply. I know that on your page you say your religious views are "Agnostic Pagan". As I understand it, Agnostic means you don't know if theres a God, but you acknowledge the possibility. And I'm sure this won't mean a lick to you until you "meet God". Susie, What would it take for you to see God? How can He prove Himself to you? Would you give Him a chance to?

Your Cousin,
Emily

Now, we have my response to her message.

I'm fine with in on the wall, but I'm good with moving it to messages as well:) You've made a lot of points here and I'm going to try to address them as best I can.

First, Gods commandment to "be fruitful and multiply". That only works if one equally condemns marriage between opposite sex partners who cannot or choose not to have children also. If it's okay for elderly people, infertile people and people who just plain choose not to have children to marry then using Gods command to multiply to keep gay people from marrying falls kind of flat. Then there is the fact that some gay people do multiply. The child may not biologically be related to both it's parents, but gay people do reproduce and they do it using the same equation (sperm+egg+incubation=baby) as straight people. Also I think it deserves mentioning that when God gave that commandment, there were two people on Earth. If they had not been fruitful and multiplied humanity would have died out. With over six billion people on the planet I think it's worked and I don't think God is nearly so concerned about that now like he was then.

I'm afraid I must correct you on Sodom and Gomorrah, their sin was not homosexuality, it was cruelty and lack of hospitality. Ezekiel 16:49-50 clearly states says; 49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen" Now I guess you could theorize that part of the "detestable things" was homosexuality, but it's not like the homosexuality that is practiced by those wanting to get married today and even in the list, it's at the bottom of the list, arrogance, greed, not being concerned for the poor and needy and haughtiness all are listed above the "detestable" things. Then we come to the fact that in the example of Sodom's homosexuality, the mob of men outside of Lots house demanding he turn them over so they could gang rape them, is not representative of a consenting homosexual relationship between two people that is being discussed in the context of gay marriage. Even when I was a church going Bible thumping Christian I never understood how consensual homosexual sex was the sin when the example given is a group of people determined to violently gang rape two strangers. I still thought being gay was wrong, but I didn't understand how that example was supposed to show that. It also never made sense to me that Lot offered his two virgin daughters to that mob and that was seemingly OK for him to do that. Then otherwise we have Leviticus, which does plainly state that lying with a man as one would with a woman is a sin, but it also lists eating shellfish and pork, wearing clothing made of two materials and shaving and cutting one's hair as sins as well. It's also worthy to note that the things that are allowed in Leviticus, specifically keeping slaves and stoning of disobedient children. It's even acceptable to beat a slave severely, as long as they get back up within a day or two.

Then we have Paul, but the problem is there is that "homosexual" in the context of two adults in a committed relationship is a word that didn't exist until fairly recently. There are many who believe that his addressing to homosexuality was in reference to common practices of the day, idolatrous orgies, male prostitutes at the temple and the practice of pederasty, young boys being used as sexual playthings by older men.

Then we come to Jesus :) Yay Jesus! I may be an agnostic pagan but I do love him. What an incredible message he brought the world. Love, tolerance, redemption and healing. Love your neighbor as yourself, remove the speck from your own eye before trying to remove the one from your neighbors eye, those without sin should cast the first stones and many many other lessons on non-judgment and compassion. Amazing world and life changing concepts there. Sadly, ones that are often ignored by Christians today in favor of judgment of others and legalistic application of their beliefs. They favor "Prosperity" gospel over the gospel of feeding the poor. They judge homosexuals and use legalistic means to control them because of that judgment instead of having compassion and tolerance. They would rather legislate their beliefs for everyone to live by rather then focus on their own lives. When a persons heart is filled with judgment, there is no room left for love. You are correct that our sins do affect us. But the problem I have is that the relationship I have with my God and what I feel I have to do to be obedient to it is different then what your God tells you you have to do to be obedient and both of those are different then the relationship the fellow down the street has with God and what he thinks he has to do to be obedient. Who is correct? Is it Grandpa who feels going to a Baptist college(oh the horrors!) is going to cost you and Sophie going in the rapture? Is it the Amish who believe total separation from society(or as much as it is possible) is what is required to be "obedient" to God? Who is correct about what God requires as "obedience"?

As for death, death on earth is inevitable for all, Christian and sinner alike. As for what comes after? It's why I say I am agnostic, because while I recognize that many do claim they definitively "know", there is no solid proof of any one theistic dogma. My personal belief is that God created us, mankind whom he created in his image, to be equipped with everything we need to connect with Him and have a personal relationship with Him at the moment of our birth. It doesn't make sense to me any other way. I cannot fathom that God would create man, but require he come across a specific holy text as a requirement of being "saved". He saved ALL of mankind, not just the ones the missionary's have reached.

You are correct that have heard it all before, I have actually argued on the side you are on (and gave many of the same reasonings you've given) many times. I was raised in the world you live in all through my formative years. My Mom homeschooled us in a Christ centered household. I might very well hold similar beliefs to yours today if I had not been given an opportunity to reexamine all the things that I had been spoon fed and had accepted as truth simply because a pastor or youth leader or some other authority said it was in the bible. What I believe now is what I feel in my heart is truth, what the voice of God tells me is truth. I was saved and baptized as a child and the same love, peace and God I felt then is the same love and peace and God that I feel now. So the answer to "what would it take for me to see God" is I already have. I have a close relationship with God and I feel He has revealed himself to me. I have never rejected God, I rejected what man has said God is. I am living in accordance with Gods laws as God has revealed Himself to me.

I know you reject this and must feel I'm being deceived as I do not call myself a "Christian" and I do not regard the Bible as Gods inerrant words. But I'm not out to change your mind or even to convince you my personal views are "right". I believe that we all have a "right" path, I don't believe that Christianity is the right path for every person, but it is the right path for some, I know you disagree because that's what you have been taught. Hell is defined as a separation from God. Sin separates us from God specifically. In my view the sins that separate us from God are judgment and hatefulness and unkindness. This includes ourselves, if we cannot love ourselves, we have separated ourselves from God. And the thing about the sinners prayer is that it is words. People say words all the time they do not mean. God does not look at the words people say, he looks at their heart. In the end who can judge the heart of man but God? If I were to die today, I not fear being in the presence of God.

But all of that is totally beside the point when it comes to the subject of legalizing gay marriage. What matters is that here in America we should all have the right to make our own choices. As long as we are hurting no one outside of ourselves, that it is a sin should not be a reason used to make laws against something. It's un-Christian, it's un-American, and it's just plain wrong in my humble opinion. It's trying to remove a speck in your neighbors eye whilst you have a plank in yours. A true Christian should mind their own life that they are as free of sin as they can be, they should focus on living a life of loving their neighbor as themselves and feeding and clothing the needy and indigent and until they are free of sin, they should not try to legislate against their neighbor because of his sin.

This has wandered everywhere and gotten book length in the process. My real dog in the fight is that people fight so hard to keep rights away from other people and they do it in the name of Jesus and the Bible and Morals and I think that's wrong. They did it with slavery and civil rights, they did it keeping the vote and equal civil rights from women and they are doing it with equal civil rights for homosexuals as well. You can believe it's a sin and wrong and there isn't a thing "wrong" with that. There will be no one forcing you to get into a gay relationship or even approve of them. But if people follow Jesus admonition to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" if they want the right to marry the person whom they love and raise their family the way they choose, they ought to support that for their gay neighbors rights to do so as well, even if they personally disagree with their beliefs and choices.

This is the end of the exchange as it stands. I was really proud of the points I made in the last letter, but I wanted to flesh out the exchange better for the blog. I brought Emily's words here with her permission (Thanks Em!). As this discussion continues, I will keep my eager public updated. Thanks for reading and bright blessings to all!